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	<title>Comments on: Doze were the days</title>
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		<title>By: Jody</title>
		<link>http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/2009/11/03/doze-were-the-days/comment-page-1/#comment-3255</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:20:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/?p=3838#comment-3255</guid>
		<description>Hi Brendan,

Thanks for reminding us of this very important issue.  Moving the high school day to a later start time and a later end time has so many advantages and is so simple that I can never quite understand why Colorado doesn&#039;t consider it.  State legislatures in Minnesota and Connecticut have required schools to consider such changes and, as the APA articles shows, have had good results.   Starting later increases attendance and alertness in first period classes.  Ending later keeps kids in school in the afternoon.  Instead of after school programs, let&#039;s just have school then so we could keep all, or most, kids in school in the afternoon.

As a historical anecdote, U.S. schools have not always had these schedules.  When I was in high school in the 60&#039;s, high schools started at 8:30 and went until 3:30.  We still managed to have after school sports and activities and students who needed to still had jobs.  

While we struggle with implementing complex interventions such as closing schools and moving students, merit pay, new ways of assessing and monitoring student performance, etc., let&#039;s also implement this relatively simple solution:  changing the starting and ending times of middle schools and high schools.  We can move elementary schools to earlier start times if needed.  Children that age do wake up earlier because they go to bed earlier, but it&#039;s difficult to get a high schooler to go to bed at 9:30.  And, yes, as a parent of two DPS kids, I found myself getting up earlier than I normally would to get them to school.  But, parents&#039; work schedules really are not an issue in this because there are many ways for high school students to get to school.  

Thanks for reminding us of this simple and important issue.  Changing school times won&#039;t dramatically change student learning, but it will have a small effect.  And, most of the interventions we struggle with won&#039;t have an enormous effect either.  So, let&#039;s at least push to implement some basic solutions that are proven to make a difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Brendan,</p>
<p>Thanks for reminding us of this very important issue.  Moving the high school day to a later start time and a later end time has so many advantages and is so simple that I can never quite understand why Colorado doesn&#8217;t consider it.  State legislatures in Minnesota and Connecticut have required schools to consider such changes and, as the APA articles shows, have had good results.   Starting later increases attendance and alertness in first period classes.  Ending later keeps kids in school in the afternoon.  Instead of after school programs, let&#8217;s just have school then so we could keep all, or most, kids in school in the afternoon.</p>
<p>As a historical anecdote, U.S. schools have not always had these schedules.  When I was in high school in the 60&#8242;s, high schools started at 8:30 and went until 3:30.  We still managed to have after school sports and activities and students who needed to still had jobs.  </p>
<p>While we struggle with implementing complex interventions such as closing schools and moving students, merit pay, new ways of assessing and monitoring student performance, etc., let&#8217;s also implement this relatively simple solution:  changing the starting and ending times of middle schools and high schools.  We can move elementary schools to earlier start times if needed.  Children that age do wake up earlier because they go to bed earlier, but it&#8217;s difficult to get a high schooler to go to bed at 9:30.  And, yes, as a parent of two DPS kids, I found myself getting up earlier than I normally would to get them to school.  But, parents&#8217; work schedules really are not an issue in this because there are many ways for high school students to get to school.  </p>
<p>Thanks for reminding us of this simple and important issue.  Changing school times won&#8217;t dramatically change student learning, but it will have a small effect.  And, most of the interventions we struggle with won&#8217;t have an enormous effect either.  So, let&#8217;s at least push to implement some basic solutions that are proven to make a difference.</p>
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		<title>By: jj</title>
		<link>http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/2009/11/03/doze-were-the-days/comment-page-1/#comment-3248</link>
		<dc:creator>jj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 05:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/?p=3838#comment-3248</guid>
		<description>Just so everyone knows, Brendan, I agreed with everything you said.  I invoked another (intermingled) voice (of adult authority) which took shots at your argument so you might make a stronger case.  Making a proposal to DPS might indeed be a nice thing to contemplate and be sure to include real data and studies with ample citations.  I suggest you will indeed have trouble getting very far because of a kind of traditional, cultural clash between teens and adults.  Teens seldom win--that was the &quot;you&quot; in &quot;change the whole world just for you&quot; meaning, you plural as a representative teen because that is how you represent yourself.  Nothing wrong with that, it&#039;s just a rhetorical technique.
If we pushed the start time for school back an hour or maybe two, it would shift the entire day for many people.  It would cause a chain reaction of events in time and space.  I think it would be worth trying; would that other adults be willing to risk seems a long shot.

At one time, I thought universal health care was a no-brainer.  I think you know how that is turning out.  There are a certain very vocal minority of people who are going out of their minds with Obama this and socialist that.  Maybe it has to do with too much seeming to change on them too quickly.  I wish I could be more hopeful about shifting the time frame of school.  Suki makes a good point about transportation.  But after school events would have to be held later such as JV or varsity sports, musical rehearsals, etc--all that would have to change.  After school jobs (not a good idea anyway) would also be affected.  Have FEWER things for kids to do other than go to school and a later start time might work.

Lengthen the school year and shorten each school day with a later start time and that might work as well.  What about that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just so everyone knows, Brendan, I agreed with everything you said.  I invoked another (intermingled) voice (of adult authority) which took shots at your argument so you might make a stronger case.  Making a proposal to DPS might indeed be a nice thing to contemplate and be sure to include real data and studies with ample citations.  I suggest you will indeed have trouble getting very far because of a kind of traditional, cultural clash between teens and adults.  Teens seldom win&#8211;that was the &#8220;you&#8221; in &#8220;change the whole world just for you&#8221; meaning, you plural as a representative teen because that is how you represent yourself.  Nothing wrong with that, it&#8217;s just a rhetorical technique.<br />
If we pushed the start time for school back an hour or maybe two, it would shift the entire day for many people.  It would cause a chain reaction of events in time and space.  I think it would be worth trying; would that other adults be willing to risk seems a long shot.</p>
<p>At one time, I thought universal health care was a no-brainer.  I think you know how that is turning out.  There are a certain very vocal minority of people who are going out of their minds with Obama this and socialist that.  Maybe it has to do with too much seeming to change on them too quickly.  I wish I could be more hopeful about shifting the time frame of school.  Suki makes a good point about transportation.  But after school events would have to be held later such as JV or varsity sports, musical rehearsals, etc&#8211;all that would have to change.  After school jobs (not a good idea anyway) would also be affected.  Have FEWER things for kids to do other than go to school and a later start time might work.</p>
<p>Lengthen the school year and shorten each school day with a later start time and that might work as well.  What about that?</p>
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		<title>By: ajldkaj</title>
		<link>http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/2009/11/03/doze-were-the-days/comment-page-1/#comment-3246</link>
		<dc:creator>ajldkaj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 04:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/?p=3838#comment-3246</guid>
		<description>Brendan:  You should write a proposal essay to DPS...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brendan:  You should write a proposal essay to DPS&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Craine</title>
		<link>http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/2009/11/03/doze-were-the-days/comment-page-1/#comment-3245</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Craine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 04:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/?p=3838#comment-3245</guid>
		<description>JJ, if you have a serious, legitimate, clear-cut reason why what I&#039;ve suggested will not work, do share. Otherwise, if you&#039;d like to put messages between the lines, please just email me. 

Newtmaster@gmail.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JJ, if you have a serious, legitimate, clear-cut reason why what I&#8217;ve suggested will not work, do share. Otherwise, if you&#8217;d like to put messages between the lines, please just email me. </p>
<p><a href="mailto:Newtmaster@gmail.com">Newtmaster@gmail.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: jj</title>
		<link>http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/2009/11/03/doze-were-the-days/comment-page-1/#comment-3242</link>
		<dc:creator>jj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/?p=3838#comment-3242</guid>
		<description>Brendan and Suki, I think you read my post too literally.  Look more closely.  Read between the lines.  And Brendan, maybe I&#039;m not reading between your lines but I don&#039;t really see how you have a beef with the students as opposed to the non-students.  Your post seems more a kind of abbreviated jeremiad directed towards no one in particular but rather some hazy notion of school responsibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brendan and Suki, I think you read my post too literally.  Look more closely.  Read between the lines.  And Brendan, maybe I&#8217;m not reading between your lines but I don&#8217;t really see how you have a beef with the students as opposed to the non-students.  Your post seems more a kind of abbreviated jeremiad directed towards no one in particular but rather some hazy notion of school responsibility.</p>
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		<title>By: Huan</title>
		<link>http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/2009/11/03/doze-were-the-days/comment-page-1/#comment-3240</link>
		<dc:creator>Huan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/?p=3838#comment-3240</guid>
		<description>&quot;Why, if you went to school later, your parents would have to go to work later as well and their business couldn’t compete with other businesses which start earlier because adults can deal with shorter sleep time&quot;
l know it&#039;s kind of off topic, but this could easily be solved by using public transportation. Not only would kids learn to be more independent, it would be better for the environment too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Why, if you went to school later, your parents would have to go to work later as well and their business couldn’t compete with other businesses which start earlier because adults can deal with shorter sleep time&#8221;<br />
l know it&#8217;s kind of off topic, but this could easily be solved by using public transportation. Not only would kids learn to be more independent, it would be better for the environment too!</p>
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		<title>By: Huan</title>
		<link>http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/2009/11/03/doze-were-the-days/comment-page-1/#comment-3239</link>
		<dc:creator>Huan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/?p=3838#comment-3239</guid>
		<description>Chinese students do spend more time in school, (and even in out of class cram school studying for the National Exam- especially when they view it as their only  real chance at getting into a good college,  which for many, it is) but it is more because they spend less time on breaks/holidays, and many even have classes 6 days a week. However, they do get longer breaks between classes, with a two hour lunch break, so they can go home and eat lunch, and a two hour break for dinner. Also, Chinese children are prohibited from having jobs until they&#039;re 18, or out of high school. And, another thing of note: they do most of their homework and studying at school, where it is much harder to lose focus without consequences. So, they probably do get more sleep, but they also have less time to &quot;be kids.&quot; Of course, most of them see themselves  becoming successful and being able to do all the things that being a kid entails, as an adult, with less restrictions by their parents and more of their own money to spend. Perhaps this kind of motivation could be key, but they do have more time to sleep, mostly because their school system is structured so that most of their &quot;education&quot; happens in school...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chinese students do spend more time in school, (and even in out of class cram school studying for the National Exam- especially when they view it as their only  real chance at getting into a good college,  which for many, it is) but it is more because they spend less time on breaks/holidays, and many even have classes 6 days a week. However, they do get longer breaks between classes, with a two hour lunch break, so they can go home and eat lunch, and a two hour break for dinner. Also, Chinese children are prohibited from having jobs until they&#8217;re 18, or out of high school. And, another thing of note: they do most of their homework and studying at school, where it is much harder to lose focus without consequences. So, they probably do get more sleep, but they also have less time to &#8220;be kids.&#8221; Of course, most of them see themselves  becoming successful and being able to do all the things that being a kid entails, as an adult, with less restrictions by their parents and more of their own money to spend. Perhaps this kind of motivation could be key, but they do have more time to sleep, mostly because their school system is structured so that most of their &#8220;education&#8221; happens in school&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Craine</title>
		<link>http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/2009/11/03/doze-were-the-days/comment-page-1/#comment-3227</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Craine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 07:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/?p=3838#comment-3227</guid>
		<description>Are you sure that they&#039;re overtaking us because of their focus on academic achievement, rather than something more basic?
...Like how rested they are each day?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you sure that they&#8217;re overtaking us because of their focus on academic achievement, rather than something more basic?<br />
&#8230;Like how rested they are each day?</p>
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		<title>By: Suki</title>
		<link>http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/2009/11/03/doze-were-the-days/comment-page-1/#comment-3226</link>
		<dc:creator>Suki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 07:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/?p=3838#comment-3226</guid>
		<description>Well, firstly, why so bitter, JJ? I mean this topic isn&#039;t exactly pure controversy, and it&#039;s not as though anyone&#039;s starting a riot here, but I suppose it&#039;s however you feel.

Regardless, I think the sole basis of your comment is a little... more attacking than it really needs to be. First of all, the story is relevant to the idea that one school is actually starting  to do something, making the argument more modern. I also disagree with the idea of the 
&quot;inconvenience&quot; being solely the author&#039;s problem, as the poor timing of many school schedules affects more than just the student populous -- your argument works both ways, when it comes to the parents; I myself have fully experienced first-hand that parents often have to wake up hours before they need to be anywhere, prompting unhealthy habits for themselves as well. When it comes to the parents, let&#039;s take a look at what we&#039;re talking about. And what we&#039;re talking about is a one hour difference here, when the sun is actually rising and students don&#039;t feel quite so much the need to pursue coffee habits resulting in a snowball effect concerning high-energy students (particularly when it comes to the slightly younger ones; and yes, there are coffee machines and coffee stops and plenty of places for these kids to obtain it) that lead to more disruptive classes and crashes in the afternoon, which may (and quite often does) in turn lead to less productive afternoons and, VERY often, this leads to later nights catching up on homework, and the cycle circles on. Firstly, parents are not, almost ever, unconditionally obliged to take their kids to school. As I&#039;m sure you&#039;re aware, quite a large population of the student body as a whole in Colorado take the school bus or the public bus; one of which can easily be altered to match with later beginnings of school (because they don&#039;t have purpose without students on them, obviously), and the other that comes every 15-20 minutes.

I am quite familiar with a few people who live far enough away from their school of choice to attend a magnet school (and this is a common phenomenon, so much of one that it cannot be discarded as a rare exception), where the attending students seek more than what their home schools have to offer them in ways of education and opportunities or what have you. These children (and sometimes their parents) are forced to get up at times like four, five o&#039; clock in the morning, to go for very long trips often by themselves before the sun has even begun to rise. This, no matter how you cut it, does not, within the constraints of hours in a day, make it possible for these kids to do their homework, have dinner, spend time with family, and have time for any scrap of a social life or room for a job, which is required of many high school students, while getting a full night&#039;s sleep. And yet, the point of moving forward the beginning of the school day by 1-2 hours can make quite a bit of difference when it comes to arranging one&#039;s schedule.

I also, I&#039;m sorry, must bring up a small problem with your closing comment -- the whole world? Seems a bit melodramatic. I have to say again, we -are- talking school times, here, not peace treaties. It has also been stated by parents, teachers (quite a few of which also do not live within even a few miles of their place of work and must fit the early schedules with difficulty, another party affected) that a later beginning would be -more- helpful towards their own routines and jobs, and while I cannot unfortunately cite this, I hope you&#039;ll take my word for it when I say that this issue is something that, factually, has been agreed upon for quite some time, by the general majority of people discussing it. And while we may sit here and discuss anecdotal things (the old &quot;walked uphill both ways in the snow&quot; argument), I feel it is prudent to acknowledge that the awkward scheduling is somewhat of a problem -- perhaps not so much of one as to sound the bomb alarms, but it is still an issue, a health issue, raised by adult and kid alike.

Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, firstly, why so bitter, JJ? I mean this topic isn&#8217;t exactly pure controversy, and it&#8217;s not as though anyone&#8217;s starting a riot here, but I suppose it&#8217;s however you feel.</p>
<p>Regardless, I think the sole basis of your comment is a little&#8230; more attacking than it really needs to be. First of all, the story is relevant to the idea that one school is actually starting  to do something, making the argument more modern. I also disagree with the idea of the<br />
&#8220;inconvenience&#8221; being solely the author&#8217;s problem, as the poor timing of many school schedules affects more than just the student populous &#8212; your argument works both ways, when it comes to the parents; I myself have fully experienced first-hand that parents often have to wake up hours before they need to be anywhere, prompting unhealthy habits for themselves as well. When it comes to the parents, let&#8217;s take a look at what we&#8217;re talking about. And what we&#8217;re talking about is a one hour difference here, when the sun is actually rising and students don&#8217;t feel quite so much the need to pursue coffee habits resulting in a snowball effect concerning high-energy students (particularly when it comes to the slightly younger ones; and yes, there are coffee machines and coffee stops and plenty of places for these kids to obtain it) that lead to more disruptive classes and crashes in the afternoon, which may (and quite often does) in turn lead to less productive afternoons and, VERY often, this leads to later nights catching up on homework, and the cycle circles on. Firstly, parents are not, almost ever, unconditionally obliged to take their kids to school. As I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re aware, quite a large population of the student body as a whole in Colorado take the school bus or the public bus; one of which can easily be altered to match with later beginnings of school (because they don&#8217;t have purpose without students on them, obviously), and the other that comes every 15-20 minutes.</p>
<p>I am quite familiar with a few people who live far enough away from their school of choice to attend a magnet school (and this is a common phenomenon, so much of one that it cannot be discarded as a rare exception), where the attending students seek more than what their home schools have to offer them in ways of education and opportunities or what have you. These children (and sometimes their parents) are forced to get up at times like four, five o&#8217; clock in the morning, to go for very long trips often by themselves before the sun has even begun to rise. This, no matter how you cut it, does not, within the constraints of hours in a day, make it possible for these kids to do their homework, have dinner, spend time with family, and have time for any scrap of a social life or room for a job, which is required of many high school students, while getting a full night&#8217;s sleep. And yet, the point of moving forward the beginning of the school day by 1-2 hours can make quite a bit of difference when it comes to arranging one&#8217;s schedule.</p>
<p>I also, I&#8217;m sorry, must bring up a small problem with your closing comment &#8212; the whole world? Seems a bit melodramatic. I have to say again, we -are- talking school times, here, not peace treaties. It has also been stated by parents, teachers (quite a few of which also do not live within even a few miles of their place of work and must fit the early schedules with difficulty, another party affected) that a later beginning would be -more- helpful towards their own routines and jobs, and while I cannot unfortunately cite this, I hope you&#8217;ll take my word for it when I say that this issue is something that, factually, has been agreed upon for quite some time, by the general majority of people discussing it. And while we may sit here and discuss anecdotal things (the old &#8220;walked uphill both ways in the snow&#8221; argument), I feel it is prudent to acknowledge that the awkward scheduling is somewhat of a problem &#8212; perhaps not so much of one as to sound the bomb alarms, but it is still an issue, a health issue, raised by adult and kid alike.</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan</title>
		<link>http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/2009/11/03/doze-were-the-days/comment-page-1/#comment-3225</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/?p=3838#comment-3225</guid>
		<description>I know better than to debate with someone who can apparently travel through time...

BUT I&#039;M STILL GOING TO.
I&#039;ll admit, the motivations behind this article are somewhat selfish. However, as I mentioned, since my school is -already- planning to move the school day forward, I did not write it purely for personal gain, and I assumed that if it is possible for one school, it should be possible for another. 
Also, perhaps I was missing something, here, but I never said that my own personal discomfort or that of my peers had any affect on non-students. Let&#039;s face it: it doesn&#039;t. But my concern is not WITH the non-students, it is with the students, and these are the same students who complain, en masse, about how tired they all are. Constantly.

So, let&#039;s see here: 
-It&#039;s possible to make changes to the school schedule to allow more sleep
-Students have expressed a DESIRE for more sleep

Well gosh, now that&#039;s a toughie, innit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know better than to debate with someone who can apparently travel through time&#8230;</p>
<p>BUT I&#8217;M STILL GOING TO.<br />
I&#8217;ll admit, the motivations behind this article are somewhat selfish. However, as I mentioned, since my school is -already- planning to move the school day forward, I did not write it purely for personal gain, and I assumed that if it is possible for one school, it should be possible for another.<br />
Also, perhaps I was missing something, here, but I never said that my own personal discomfort or that of my peers had any affect on non-students. Let&#8217;s face it: it doesn&#8217;t. But my concern is not WITH the non-students, it is with the students, and these are the same students who complain, en masse, about how tired they all are. Constantly.</p>
<p>So, let&#8217;s see here:<br />
-It&#8217;s possible to make changes to the school schedule to allow more sleep<br />
-Students have expressed a DESIRE for more sleep</p>
<p>Well gosh, now that&#8217;s a toughie, innit?</p>
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